Discutant avec Béa la semaine dernière, nous avons évoqué les différents rôles médicaux en TdM.

Je sais que Laegalad a étudier la notion d'herboriste et Ello les maisons de guérison, il pourrait être intéressant de mettre tout ça en commun pour ceux qui ont des questions sur le sujet. Si Kendra passe par là et qu'elle a des infos sur les médics dans les cultures de référence du Rohan, par exemple, elle est aussi largement la bienvenue.

J'aurai aimé pouvoir faire quelques recherches, mais je suis complètement débordé, alors je vais juste m'asseoir et profiter des sources de chacun \o/

Merci.

Je ne crois pas qu'on ait grand chose sur le Rohan à ce sujet, sauf qu'ils ont moins de savoir en la matiere que les guérisseurs de Gondor (il y a une allusion dans le SDA à ce sujet ou dans les CLI, je la rechercherais).

Pas eu le temps de cherche les VF, mais voici du sourçage pour ce qui concerne les Elfes et les gens de la Cité Blanche, et Aragorn, que je met à part (roi thaumaturge + Elfstone)

Citation :

LotR B1C12
[Aragorn] sat down on the ground, and taking the dagger-hilt laid it on his knees, and he sang over it a slow song in a strange tongue. Then setting it aside, he turned to Frodo and in a soft tone spoke words the others could not catch. From the pouch at his belt he drew out the long leaves of a plant.
'These leaves,' he said, 'I have walked far to find; for this plant does not grow in the bare hills; but in the thickets away south of the Road I found it in the dark by the scent of its leaves.' He crushed a leaf in his fingers, and it gave out a sweet and pungent fragrance. 'It is fortunate that I could find it, for it is a healing plant that the Men of the West brought to Middle-earth. Athelas they named it, and it grows now sparsely and only near places where they dwelt or camped of old; and it is not known in the North, except to some of those who wander in the Wild. It has great virtues, but over such a wound as this its healing powers may be small.'
He threw the leaves into boiling water and bathed Frodo's shoulder. The fragrance of the steam was refreshing, and those that were unhurt felt their minds calmed and cleared. The herb had also some power over the wound, for Frodo felt the pain and also the sense of frozen cold lessen in his side; but the life did not return to his arm, and he could not raise or use his hand.

Citation :

LotR B1C12
[Glorfindel] 'Alas! the wounds of this weapon are beyond my skill to heal. I will do what I can - but all the more do I urge you now to go on without rest.'
He searched the wound on Frodo's shoulder with his fingers, and his face grew graver, as if what he learned disquieted him. But Frodo felt the chill lessen in his side and arm; a little warmth crept down from his shoulder to his hand, and the pain grew easier. The dusk of evening seemed to grow lighter about him, as if a cloud had been withdrawn. He saw his friends' faces more clearly again, and a measure of new hope and strength returned.

Citation :

B2C1
Elrond is a master of healing, but the weapons of our Enemy are deadly. To tell you the truth, I had very little hope; for I suspected that there was some fragment of the blade still in the closed wound. But it could not be found until last night. Then Elrond removed a splinter. It was deeply buried, and it was working inwards.'

Citation :

B2C6
[Aragorn] The cut is not poisoned, as the wounds of orc-blades too often are. It should heal well when I have tended it. Bathe it when Gimli has heated water.'
He opened his pouch and drew out some withered leaves. `They are dry and some of their virtue has one, he said, but here I have still some of the leaves of athelas that I gathered near Weathertop. Crush one in the water, and wash the wound clean, and I will bind it. "

Citation :

B4C8
So at last Faramir and Éowyn and Meriadoc were laid in beds in the Houses of Healing; and there they were tended well. For though all lore was in these latter days fallen from its fullness of old, the leechcraft of Gondor was still wise, and skilled in the healing of wound and hurt, and all such sickness as east of the Sea mortal men were subject to. Save old age only. For that they had found no cure; and indeed the span of their lives had now waned to little more than that of other men, and those among them who passed the tale of five score years with vigour were grown few, save in some houses of purer blood. But now their art and knowledge were baffled; for there were many sick of a malady that would not be healed; and they called it the Black Shadow, for it came from the Nazgûl. And those who were stricken with it fell slowly into an ever deeper dream, and then passed to silence and a deadly cold, and so died. And it seemed to the tenders of the sick that
on the Halfling and on the Lady of Rohan this malady lay heavily. Still at whiles as the morning wore away they would speak, murmuring in their dreams; and the watchers listened to all that they said, hoping perhaps to learn something that would help them to understand their hurts. But soon they began to fall down into the darkness, and as the sun turned west a grey shadow crept over their faces. But Faramir burned with a fever that would not abate.
[...]
Then an old wife, Ioreth, the eldest of the women who served in that house, looking on the fair face of Faramir, wept, for all the people loved him. And she said: ‘Alas! if he should die. Would that there were kings in Gondor, as there were once upon a time, they say! For it is said in old lore: The hands of the king are the hands of a healer. And so the rightful king could ever be known.’
[...]
Then [Aragorn] called to Ioreth and he said: ‘You have store in this House of the herbs of healing?’
‘Yes, lord,’ she answered; ‘but not enough, I reckon, for all that will need them. But I am sure I do not know where we shall find more; for all things are amiss in these dreadful days, what with fires and burnings, and the lads that run errands so few, and all the roads blocked. Why, it is days out of count since ever a carrier came in from Lossarnach to the market! But we do our best in this House with what we have, as I am sure your lordship will know.’
‘I will judge that when I see,’ said Aragorn. ‘One thing also is short time for speech. Have you athelas?’
‘I do not know, I am sure, lord,’ she answered, ‘at least not by that name. I will go and ask of the herb-master; he knows all the old names.’
‘It is also called kingsfoil,’ said Aragorn; ‘and maybe you know it by that name, for so the country-folk call it in these latter days.’ ‘Oh that!’ said Ioreth. ‘Well, if your lordship had named it at first I could have told you. No, we have none of it, I am sure. Why, I have never heard that it had any great virtue; and indeed I have often said to my sisters when we came upon it growing in the woods: “kingsfoil” I said, “ ‘tis a strange name, and I wonder why ‘tis called so; for if I were a king, I would have plants more bright in my garden”. Still it smells sweet when bruised, does it not? If sweet is the right word: wholesome, maybe, is nearer.’
[...]
Thereupon the herb-master entered. ‘Your lordship asked for kingsfoil, as the rustics name it, he said; or athelas in the noble tongue, or to those who know somewhat of the Valinorean. . .’
‘I do so,’ said Aragorn, ‘and I care not whether you say now asëa aranion or kingsfoil, so long as you have some.’
‘Your pardon lord!’ said the man. ‘I see you are a lore-master, not merely a captain of war. But alas! sir, we do not keep this thing in the Houses of Healing, where only the gravely hurt or sick are tended. For it has no virtue that we know of, save perhaps to sweeten a fouled air, or to drive away ome passing heaviness. Unless, of course, you give heed to rhymes of old days which women such as our good Ioreth still repeat without understanding.
When the black breath blows
and death’s shadow grows
and all lights pass,
come athelas! come athelas!
Life to the dying
In the king’s hand lying!
It is but a doggrel, I fear, garbled in the memory of old wives. Its meaning I leave to your judgement, if indeed it has any. But old folk still use an infusion of the herb for headaches.’
‘Then in the name of the king, go and find some old man ofkeeps some in his house!’ cried Gandalf.
[...]
And at last Bergil came running in, and he bore six leaves in a cloth. ‘It is kingsfoil, Sir,’ he said; ‘but not fresh, I fear. It must have been culled two weeks ago at the least. I hope it will serve, Sir?’ Then looking at Faramir he burst into tears.
But Aragorn smiled. ‘It will serve,’ he said. ‘The worst is now over. Stay and be comforted!’ Then taking two leaves, he laid them on his hands and breathed on them, and then he crushed them, and straightway a living freshness filled the room, as if the air itself awoke and tingled, sparkling with joy. And then he cast the leaves into the bowls of steaming water that were brought to him, and at once all hearts were lightened. For the fragrance that came to each was like a memory of dewy mornings of unshadowed sun in some land of which the fair world in Spring is itself but a fleeting memory. But Aragorn stood up as one refreshed, and his eyes smiled as he held a bowl before
Faramir’s dreaming face.
[...]
But Aragorn came to Éowyn, and he said: ‘Here there is a grievous hurt and a heavy blow. The arm that was broken has been tended with due skill, and it will mend in time, if she has the strength to live: It is the shield-arm that is maimed; but the chief evil comes through the sword-arm. In that there now seems no life, although it is unbroken.
[...]
. But [Aragorn] bent and kissed her on the brow, and called her softly, saying: ‘Éowyn Éomund’s daughter, awake! For your enemy has passed away!’
She did not stir, but now she began again to breathe deeply, so that her breast rose and fell beneath the white linen of the sheet. Once more Aragorn bruised two leaves of athelas and cast them into steaming water; and he laved her brow with it, and her right arm lying cold and nerveless on the coverlet.
Then, whether Aragorn had indeed some forgotten power of Westernesse, or whether it was but his words of the Lady Éowyn that wrought on them, as the sweet influence of the herb stole about the chamber it seemed to those who stood by that a keen wind blew through the window, and it bore no scent, but was an air wholly fresh and clean and young, as if it had not before been breathed by any living thing and came new-made from snowy mountains high beneath a dome of stars, or from shores of silver far away washed by seas of foam.
‘Awake, Éowyn, Lady of Rohan!’ said Aragorn again, and he took her right hand in his and felt it warm with life returning. ‘Awake! The shadow is gone and all darkness is washed clean!’ Then he laid her hand in Éomer’s and stepped away. ‘Call her!’ he said, and he passed silently from the chamber.
[...]
Then Aragorn laid his hand on Merry’s head, and passing his hand gently through the brown curls, he touched the eyelids, and called him by name. And when the fragrance of athelas stole through the room, like the scent of orchards, and of heather in the sunshine full of bees, suddenly Merry awoke, and he said:
‘I am hungry. What is the time?’Then Aragorn laid his hand on Merry’s head, and passing his hand gently through the brown curls, he touched the eyelids, and called him by name. And when the fragrance of athelas stole through the room, like the scent of orchards, and of heather in the sunshine full of bees, suddenly Merry awoke, and he said:
‘I am hungry. What is the time?’

Ce qui donne, pour les Elfes : talents de guérison quasi illimités : imposition des mains, chirurgie, pour extraire la pointe de l'épée de Frodo. Et la connaissance des plantes et cie. En quelques millénaires, Elrond a eu le temps de faire le tour de la question. Quelques limites (mais que personne de toute façon ne sait repousser) : ce qui peut venir du Mordor. Bon, et puis si un cas est vraiment désespéré.

Pour les Humains de la Cité Blanche : très bonne connaissance des plantes et des maladies humaines, idem des connaissances techniques pour réduire une fracture et cie.

Pour Aragorn : ses talents tiennent de l'elfique, puisqu'il guérit lui aussi par imposition des mains et que c'est à ça qu'on le reconnaît comme Roi légitime. Il porte de plus l'Elfstone, qui a aussi le pouvoir (elfique) de régénérer.

Je ne sais pas si ça répond à ce que tu voulais ?

Pour les maisons de guérison, j'avais relevé ça :
C'est grosso modo les mêmes que Laegalad, j'ai aussi mis la VF.

Citation :

There dwelt the few women that had been permitted to remain in Minas Tirith, since they were skilled in healing or on the service of the healers.

-> Là demeuraient les quelques femmes autorisées à rester à Minas Tirith en raison de leurs aptitudes aux soins ou au service des guérisseurs.

(Retour du Roi, livre V, chapitre VII)

Citation :

For though all lore was in this latter days fallen from its fullness of old, the leechcraft of Gondor was still wise, and skilled in the healing of wound and hurt, and all such sikcness as East of the sea mortal men were subject to. Save old age only

-> Car, si le savoir avait depuis quelque temps perdu sa plénitude d'autrefois, la médecine du Gondor était encore sagace et habile à la guérison des blessures et des contusions, comme des maladies auxquelles les mortels étaient sujets à l'est de la Mer. Hormis, seulement, la vieillesse.

(Retour du Roi, livre V chapitre VIII)

Citation :

Then an old wife, Ioreth, the eldest of the women who served in that house, looking on the fair face of Faramir, wept, for all the people loved him. And she said: "Alas! if he should die. Would that there were kings in Gondor, as there were once upon a time, they say! For it is said in old lore: The hands of the king are the hands of a healer. And so the rightful king could ever be known."

-> [justify]Alors, une vieille femme, Ioreth, la plus âgée de celles qui servaient dans cette maison, regardant le beau visage de Faramir, pleura, car tous l'aimaient. Et elle dit: «Hélas ! s'il devait mourir. Pût-il y avoir à Gondor des rois, comme il en fut autrefois, à ce qu'on dit. Car il est dit selon l'ancienne tradition: Les mains du roi sont celles d'un guérisseur. Et ainsi pouvait-on toujours connaître le roi légitime.

(Retour du Roi, livre V, chapitre IX)

Citation :

Then he called to Ioreth and he said: "You have store in this House of the herbs of healing?"
"Yes, lord," she answered; "but not enough, I reckon, for all that will need them. But I am sure I do not know where we shall find more; for all things are amiss in these dreadful days, what with fires and burnings, and the lads that run errands so few, and all the roads blocked. Why, it is days out of count since ever a carrier came in from Lossarnach to the market! But we do our best in this House with what we have, as I am sure your lordship will know."

-> Il appela alors Ioreth et lui demanda: «Vous avez dans cette Maison une réserve des herbes de guérison?»
«[justify]Oui, Seigneur, répondit-elle, pas suffisante toutefois, je présume, pour tous ceux qui en auraient besoin. Mais je ne saurais assurément où en trouver d'autres, car tout va de travers assurément en ces jours terribles, avec les feux, les incendies, si peu de garçons pour faire les commissions et toutes les routes bloquées. Il y a des éternités qu'aucun roulier n'est venu de Lossarnach au marché! Mais on fera de son mieux dans cette Maison avec ce qu'on a, comme votre seigneurie le sait bien, pour sûr !»

(Retour du Roi, livre V chapitre IX)

Citation :

Thereupon the herb-master entered. "Your lordship asked for kingsfoil, as the rustics name it, he said; or athelas in the noble tongue, or to those who know somewhat of the Valinorean. . ."
"I do so," said Aragorn, "and I care not whether you say now asëa aranion or kingsfoil, so long as you have some."
"Your pardon lord!" said the man. "I see you are a lore-master, not merely a captain of war. But alas! sir, we do not keep this thing in the Houses of Healing, where only the gravely hurt or sick are tended."

-> Là-dessus entra le maître des herbes. «Votre Seigneurie a demandé de la feuille de roi, comme l'appellent les campagnards, dit-il, ou de l'athelas en langage noble, ou pour ceux qui connaissent un peu le valinorien»
«C'est mon cas, dit Aragorn, et peu m'importe que vous me disiez maintenant asëa aramon ou feuille de roi, pourvu que vous en ayez»
"Faites excuse, Seigneur! dit l'homme. Je vois que vous êtes un maître du savoir et pas simplement un capitaine de guerre. Mais, hélas! Monsieur, nous ne conservons pas de cet article dans les Maisons de Guérison, où l'on ne soigne que les grands blessés ou les grands malades".

(Retour du Roi, livre V chapitre IX)

Citation :

But for long years we healers have only sought to patch the rents made by the men of swords.

-> Mais depuis de longues années, nous autres guérisseurs ne nous sommes attachés qu'à réparer les déchirures faites par les hommes d'épée.

(Retour du Roi, livre VI chapitre V)

Il est donc expliqué que les connaissances médicales du Gondor sont très avancées et capables de soigner à peu près n'importe quelle blessure ou maladie à l'exception de l'âge et du mal venu du Mordor, bien que le talent des guérisseurs décline quelque peu. Il est aussi mentionné clairement que les maisons de guérisons sont réservées au soin des blessés et des malades les plus graves : On peut donc raisonnablement supposer l'existance de guérisseurs en dehors des Maisons de guérison, voire de guérisseurs itinérants capables de se déplacer entre les différentes exploitations qui peuplent les régions agricoles du Gondor pour aller y soigner les maux de gravité moindre (voir par exemple la description du Pelennor) ...
On a également des informations assez interessantes sur la "hierarchie" au sein des Maisons, avec un maitre des herbes, un gardien des Maisons (mentionné dans le chapitre V du livre VI) et des femmes chargées des soins.

Merci bien les filles, et merci aussi à toi Thalion. La dernière fois que nous nous sommes vus , nous avons en effet discuté d'herboristerie suite au BG pour mon rôle au Rohan. En effet, je souhaite rester une marchande du moins pour cette année encore, et ayant des affinités avec les plantes, j'aurais aimé savoir si une "herboriste/marchande", pourrais avoir sa place en sein de ce peuple et pouvoir en faire usage pour la guérison.
Mais je vois, d'après ce que vous m'avez dit, que cela reste pour mon peuple de préférence (les elfes !
et le Gondor,

Des idées sinon ?

Mais non, c'est n'est pas reservé aux Elfes ou au Gondor.

Non, par contre si on se retrouve avec 15 herboristes dans la compagnie, ça va être très redondant.

Y'a d'autres choses à faire avec les plantes : teinture ou vannerie, par exemple. Autant diversifier les profils, et l'un comme l'autre irait parfaitement avec le Rohan (comme avec n'importe quel peuple ok, mais pour le moment personne ne s'est proposé de baser ses activités dessus).

Merci Laegalad pour tes idées, je vais voir vers quoi me tourner pour mon rôle au Rohan.

Je sors du sujet des médecins, mais par rapport à l'idée d'une activité autour des plantes, on a personne qui s'est spécialisé dans la cuisine pour pouvoir faire des recettes purement médiévale avec fiche recette ou explications orales ou je ne sais quoi de pédagogique. Ça pourrait être intéressant d'innover dans le domaine en recherchant des produits originaux à présenter au public. La soupe d'ortie fait toujours son petit effet par exemple.

Ah oui, je te verrais bien, Béa, dans ce rôle ! Du lembas, du sirop de rose, et toutes les joyeusetés avec lesquelles tu nous régales...

Et la teinture chez les Hobbits, vifs et colorés?

C'est une bonne idée aussi ! Je suis pour la diversification, moi

Il y a déjà des infos qui trainent sur le forum et j'ai pas mal de recettes et de ressources sur la teinture végétale... si ça ne dérange personne, je peux y travailler... (et surtout j'ai le matériel en bassines, gamelles et en bois de chauffage, et un accès facile à pas mal de plantes pour faire des essais, ... et le fil à linge ombragé )

Et là je suis vraiment hors du sujet de la médecine en TdM...

edit : rien qu'en relisant le sujet sur la teinture naturelle, y'a de quoi faire.

Encore un point, signalé dans « Laws and Customs among the Eldar » (MR, p. 213-214) :

Tolkien a écrit:

For instance, the arts of healing, and all that touches on the care of the body, are among all the Eldar most practised by the nissi; whereas it was the elven-men who bore arms at need. And the Eldar deemed that the dealing of death, even when lawful or under necessity, diminished the power of healing, and that the virtue of the nissi in this matter was due rather to their abstaining from hunting or war than to any special power that went with their womanhood. Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence, the nissi fought valiantly, and there was less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals. On the other hand many elven-men were great healers and skilled in the lore of living bodies, though such men abstained from hunting, and went not to war until the last need.

Moi quand Galad avait parlé d'herboristerie j'imaginais qu'elle parlait plutot du côté "cuisine", genre comme dit Zelph, soupe d'ortie ou autres plantes et tisanes et que du coup elle ne "marchait pas trop sur les plate-bandes" de Laegalad qui elle à mon sens est plutot tourné vers les ongents et les baumes (c'est juste une impression personnelle !)

J'aime l'idée de Zelph concernant la cuisine médiévale.

Je reviens, après quelques mois d'absence (ordi en panne Merci Théodwyn pour ma carte graphique)
Donc, Aerin, moi aussi, j'ai commencé un atelier de teinture végétale dans mon coin, après avoir demandé à Sador si je pouvais le commencer, vu que son atelier teinture en en stand bye pour le moment.
En ma possession :

3 échevaux de laine vierge
Mordants : Alun, sulfate de fer, Poudre de Tara, Crème de tartre, charbon de bois
mais aussi :
Garance
Gaude
Feuilles de Myrthe
Cochenille
Indigo
Écorce d'eucalyptus
Millepertuis
Pelures d'oignon
Coquille de noix
Feuille d'artichauts (Jaune vif, pour les hobbits)

Mais aussi des livres sur la teinture au bouillon, et la teinture à froid.

Il me manque uniquement les bassines.

J'avais dans l'idée de faire de la teinture végétale pour laine dans mon rôle au Rohan, (galons, et aussi pour la fourniture de la tapisserie de Théodwyn ) si personne ne voit d'inconvénient.